Lucy Lewis: Hello and welcome to the Future of Work Hub’s “In Conversation…” podcast. I'm Lucy Lewis, a partner in Lewis Silkin's employment team. For several years now, I've had the privilege of hosting conversations with a range of thought leaders to delve into their insights on the future of work and what that means for organisations and their people. And as we approach the end of our 2024 podcast series, the time has come again to reflect on the conversations that I've had over the last year and highlight some of my really favourite insights and draw out those key themes that have developed through our conversations across the year - I've had some really fantastic guests.

So, against a backdrop of geopolitical uncertainty, polarisation, economic instability, the need for trust in the employment relationship has never been greater. And those of you that are regular listeners to the podcast will know that trust has been a consistent theme through the discussions we've had for a number of years now. 

This year, our conversations have been really wide-ranging. We've touched on growing workforce diversity and the opportunities and challenges that brings for organisations, particularly the impact of the ageing workforce, and a growing focus on being a multi-generational team. 

We've obviously also talked about AI, other emerging technologies as those transform our daily lives and our workplaces. And we've looked at some really new and exciting technologies and of course, particularly explored the impact of AI and automation on jobs and on skills and what that means for this growing focus on “good work”.

Another thing that we've really seen is businesses continue to be expected to demonstrate ethical behaviours and manage their social and environmental impact while at the same time, navigating a workforce that is increasingly expected to be able to have influence over the approach that their employer takes on things like responsible business strategies. And what that's leading to is greater employee activism and engagement on these issues.

Workplace culture has also remained at the forefront of probably all of our discussions. It's been a record year of global elections, but we're finding ourselves in a more polarised political climate, and that's resulted in tensions spilling over into the workplace, and we've been exploring on the podcast some of the steps that employers can take to manage that.

And what's been really clear from my conversations is that the really critical thing is the role that leaders and managers play when it comes to navigating these issues. And with all of that in mind, whether we're talking about technology, diversity and inclusion, workplace culture, managing conflict - a really consistent message has emerged, and that is that it's absolutely critical that you put people at the centre of your workplace strategy. All my guests were completely unanimous in their view that giving employees a voice, creating a rewarding and meaningful work environment and bringing them on the journey, whatever the issue, that is critical to building organisational resilience and preparing for growth in the future.

So, let's get started.

Demongraphic shifts

Over the past few years, we've explored the opportunities and challenges that demographic shifts and growing workforce diversity presents for organisations, and particularly some challenges with recruiting and retaining people given the number of stubborn skills gaps. And we're going to start the podcast today by looking at some of those demographic shifts and what they mean for employers. 

I was so delighted to be able to welcome back Avivah Wittenberg-Cox, the CEO of20-first, one of the world's leading global consultancies on balancing gender, generations and culture. Avivah joined me for a really fascinating conversation about the profound implications of ageing populations on the world of work, and she made a really interesting point - that despite workforces increasingly reflecting this longer-term trend towards an ageing population, perhaps surprisingly, it's not really being treated as a strategic workforce issue at all. So, we've got this very predictable iceberg, but it's a little bit like climate change, we don't see meaningful activity until it's really visible in the workplace and it's becoming an obvious pressure point for employers. And we're at the start, I think, of seeing signs that this might be changing.

So, I asked Avivah to explain this broader societal demographic shift and what that means for the world of work.

Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: Generally, what we're seeing is the world's demographics are shifting from what I call the pyramid to the square. The pyramid is what we've all grown up with, and learned for all of human history, that is a few old people and a large base of young people. And that's how we've designed our systems, our retirement plans, our pension infrastructures. Everything is designed, including our workplace and career management patterns, on the pyramid. The issue is we are morphing into a square, which means we're going to have generational balance or the same number of people over 50 as under 50.

Lucy Lewis: Much has been written about the 100-year life - people saying that 50% of children born today will live to be 100. With that emerging reality, Avivah challenges the traditional idea of three stages of life - so starting with education, moving to a long working age life (which the OECD defines that as 15 to 64) and then a third stage of retirement and old age.

And one of the things I really enjoyed about the conversation with Avivah was her suggestion that we just need to update that model and we need to look at our life as being in quarters instead.

Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: I think if you look at each quarter as 25 years, you can see that the work world has been essentially designed around Q2, the years from 25 to 50. You know, you get educated before, then you have these sharp, short, linear career trajectories with no pauses, breaks, interruptions and then over 50, you're kind of seen as a little over the hill. The reality with the emerging Q3, Q3 is the really new piece.

Lucy Lewis: I think that's really exciting and creates lots of opportunities to innovate, both individually in the way that we look at our own careers, but also for those in organisations that are responsible for building out their people strategy to have a strategy that's fit for the future.

Longevity strategy

In order to address that at an organisational level, you are going to need to have buy-in from the senior leadership team. You need to make sure that ensuring generational balance is seen as a business priority. And I explore with Avivah how you go about achieving that - and using her words - she talks about the idea of a longevity strategy.

Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: First, you have to analyse how big an issue is this for your business, which means you need to measure. 

Armed with data, you need to get this debate up to your executive team to decide how much you want to invest in it and what resources do you need to put into play. One of the key skills is you need to align your ExCo and skill them up first to be longevity literate. 

Once you've got your longevity strategy, then you're going to have to cascade that longevity literacy, which requires a shift in management culture and mindsets to be much more proactively engaged in engaging with age and stage as part of your management. 

Lucy Lewis: Building longevity into a people strategy to leverage the skills and experience of older workers who have different motivations, different expectations can address one of those other significant challenges that we've been talking about, which is difficulties hiring in the current labour market, ongoing skill shortages, difficulty attracting, but particularly retaining the best people.

Migration and skills gaps 

And the ability of business to find the right people with the right skills can also be profoundly impacted by other issues, for example, migration rules and the cost of recruiting skilled workers from abroad. I spoke to my fellow partner at Lewis Silkin, Naomi Hanrahan-Soar, an immigration specialist, and we explored how important immigration can be to supplementing some of those skills gaps.

Naomi Hanrahan-Soar: One of the reasons why countries, which are really pro-migration, are pro-migration is because they recognise an ageing population is supplemented by migration and that's the one thing that keeps the economy healthy in the longer-term. 

Building cultural literacy

Lucy Lewis: We also explored the importance of building cultural literacy to harness the benefits of bringing new and different experiences and different perspectives into an organisation. And that need for cultural literacy is an area that I also explore with Avivah when we discussed how to harness the benefits of diversity by understanding that inclusion is really about learning about differences and developing a deep understanding of where people are from.

Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: We know from very successful international and global companies who've been working across cultures, languages, ethnicities and religions for decades, you need to learn about these differences. You need to understand them deeply, it's very easy when you're in an organisation that's dominated by one profile, one background, often one school degree, not to be so interested in the extraordinary variety that humans come in. Ignoring differences or stereotyping, which is one reaction to that is just dangerous and not productive. So now everybody's pushing for more inclusive workplaces. Inclusion doesn't just mean a blanket let's be nice to people. It actually requires a deep understanding of where people are from.

Embodied knowledge

Lucy Lewis: That importance of gaining a deep understanding of people's experiences and perspectives emerged again in my conversations with anthropologist Simon Roberts. Simon is the author and co-founder of Stripe Partners. He talked about the concept of embodied knowledge - which is an idea that executives and leaders and employees need to immerse themselves in real-world experiences to enable them to build up an understanding of the business based on that first-hand experience (as opposed to second-hand understanding that might come through studying data or studying reports).

Simon Roberts: Embodied knowledge is really central to the development of empathy. Not just trying to understand things from other people's perspectives, but really seeing it and feeling it from their perspective. And it is only, again, by going out into the world and doing things and having experiences that are similar to those of the people that we are trying to understand, that we can really get a better understanding of what the world looks like or is experienced like by them.

Diversity and inclusion

Lucy Lewis: And all of this focus on how organisations can foster inclusion in the workplace continued across a number of other conversations I had this year, including a particularly fascinating conversation with Giles Gibbons, the founder and CEO of strategy consultancy firm, Good Business. Giles has almost 30 years experience advising organisations on purpose, behaviour change, sustainability, and responsible business strategies. And I thought he had some really great advice for organisations on approaching DE&I in the workplace.

Giles Gibbons: People talk about DE&I, but they do not really talk about the “I” as much as the as the “D” and the “E”, in a way. And “I” means that you need to feel safe within your organisation to have divergent views and that that is okay and that you create a culture where it feels safe to have those and to engage with people who might not agree with you, but that the company is making it safe for you to have and perform your function, at the same time as accepting that you do not all agree.

Lucy Lewis: Giles also made a really good point that more diverse workplaces in terms of culture and generations often results in differing values and differing viewpoints. And we can see that happening, particularly on things like climate change or gender, even simply ways of working in the hybrid world.

And at the same time that's happening, we're living in this progressively politicised environment that's creating an increase in the potential for more intolerance of different views and that's starting to spill over into the workplace. More and more, employees want to discuss and engage on “political and social” issues at work.

Managing workplace conflict

So we find ourselves in a position where people are expressing views in the workplace that other people might find offensive, and that's leading to an increase in grievances and an increase in conflict. And we see many organisations, particularly as advisors, struggling with how to manage that - how to deal with this feeling of emerging conflict when it comes to employee relations. And I think we tend to fall into a position where we can perceive conflict as being damaging or negative, and it was really fascinating to revisit that assumption in my conversation with David Liddle. David is the founder and CEO of the TCM Group and he shared his insights and perspectives on conflict with me.

David Liddle: Conflict is an unavoidable, inescapable, in fact, it’s a healthy expression of working life and I would argue that when it’s managed well, conflict can be a really important driver or catalyst to innovation, creativity, growth, insight, and learning. In fact, well-managed disagreements, conflicts within our workplaces are the antecedent to growth. And therefore, we need conflict and disagreement in our organisations.  

Yet, we’re fearful of conflict. We treat conflict as a risk. We try and create processes, systems, mechanisms to design conflict out. In fact, I see within our organisations, the greatest cultural norms around conflict resolution are what I describe as extensive inaction; ignore it and hope it’ll go away, brush it under the carpet, don’t deal with it effectively. Or, when we can’t do that anymore, expensive overreaction; formal processes, litigation, settlement agreements, significant time, money and effort spent.  

Lucy Lewis: David's view was that managing conflict needs to be seen as a strategic leadership priority. I thought that made so much sense - good leadership, particularly in times where there are differences, is absolutely essential to emerging divisions and social tensions. And I know many of you work for organisations that are really trying to build workplace cultures that foster diversity, foster collaboration, are a melting pot for innovation. But at the same time, you're being confronted by this need to manage conflict. And when tensions arise, what my conversation with David illustrated is that you've absolutely got to equip managers and leaders at all levels with the right skills and the right training and support. And I thought really importantly, early intervention has a crucial role to play if you're going to be able to handle those challenges successfully, because that is absolutely critical to building trust.

David's view was the future of work will be defined by the way that we handle conflict, and the organisations that succeed, are those that manage and harness the benefits of having diverse viewpoints within your organisation. And it's so interesting to reflect on the strategic value that comes with listening, understanding your people and the value of different attributes that diverse people can bring to your organisation.

Employee activism

And because employers are increasingly being expected to take a stand on potentially sensitive issues, possibly political issues, you can find it very challenging when you've got that range of views. So when I spoke to Giles, we explored how businesses are facing that really intense scrutiny from consumers, investors, and employees on their social and environmental impact. And with employee activism on the rise, employees increasingly want and expect to have an influence on important topics within the organisation. As a result of that, the significance of the employer brand is growing, particularly in the sustainability space, and it's absolutely critical that businesses recognise that if they're going to be able to recruit and retain the best people.

Giles Gibbons: I think we really see much of the sustainability work that organisations are doing is because they want to recruit the best, they want to retain the best and it is really important for those people that they are working for a company that they are proud of, that they believe is having a positive impact on the world. So, I think increasingly, employees have a greater share of voice in the importance of sustainability within an organisation

And I think that we are going to see a really interesting period over the next two to three years of those companies that are doubling down and will achieve some of that change and will be able to differentiate themselves as a consequence and those that will find it more difficult to do that and the challenges that they will face from employees and consumers by going perhaps too slow.

Good work

Lucy Lewis: You'll have heard me speak on this podcast before about the relationship between employers and employees, how that's changing, how the idea of the “social contract” is evolving. People want more from their employer than that old industrial age “transactional idea” that you give me work in return for fair pay and fair benefits. We're in this much more competitive market for talent and meeting those evolving expectations can bring differentiation and really important competitive advantage.

And it was great to talk to Ben Willmott who heads the CIPD's public policy team to discuss what he thinks is behind that shift in expectations and this growing focus on the idea of “good work”, and what that means for employers and what that means for HR. 

First, Ben explained the CIPD's view on what “good work” actually is.

Ben Willmott: The CIPD has been measuring good work over the last seven years or so through what we call our Good Work Index, which is a large-scale survey of employees that tracks job quality and looks at a number of different dimensions of good work. It looks at things like pay and benefits, people's contractual relationship (are they permanent, are they part time or are they on a zero hours arrangement, for example), things like work-life balance, job design, relationships in the workplace (so the relationships that people have with their manager or their colleagues), employee voice and health and wellbeing (including people's mental health and wellbeing and things like stress).

Lucy Lewis: We went on to discuss how employers can incorporate the principles of good work into job design to give employees flexibility, autonomy, purpose, and challenge - all of those things contributing to overall job quality. But for me, the key takeaway from our conversation was, again, the critical role that leaders and line managers play in ensuring that that idea of “good work” is completely embedded through their organisations.

Ben Willmott: Things like constructive feedback, clear clarity of communication over people's objectives and, critically, managers who know their people, who demonstrate they care about them, who know the things that matter to them and provide flexibility and support. Those elements are critical to creating trust in the employment relationship. I think without trust, then it's very difficult to develop a productive work culture and sustainable work culture where people will want to stay with you as an employer and be resilient under pressure. 

I think the most important consideration for employers and HR teams if they're thinking about improving job quality and also business performance, I would focus on training your line managers to manage people properly.

Lucy Lewis: And there it is again - trust. For regular listeners to the podcast, you'll know that that idea of trust has emerged as a central theme and this year was no different. 

Another area putting a spotlight on this idea of “good work” is the rapid development in technology, particularly in AI, and ongoing concerns about the impact on skills and job displacement. Cost cutting and productivity gains continue to dominate the conversation about future developments in technology, particularly in response to economic headwinds, the rising cost of doing business, the rising cost of employing people.

Human-centric adoption of AI

And obviously that's prompted a growing focus in many organisations to consider automation and the impact of automation, advances in technology on its people, but also assessing how technology can be deployed in a way that's optimal both for business and for the people that work in the business. And this idea of human-centred adoption of technology and AI that augments rather than degrades job quality has definitely emerged as a theme across the conversations I've had about technology this year.

I was really lucky to speak to Dr. Vivienne Ming, a theoretical neuroscientist, entrepreneur, and co-founder of the Socos Labs, which is a company dedicated to leveraging AI driven research to maximise human potential. And of course, I couldn't speak to Vivienne without asking her for her take on this key question about whether AI will ultimately create more jobs than it replaces and if so, who is going to be qualified to do those jobs? Vivienne explained this concept of de-professionalisation, where we'll see an increase in demand for low skilled labour, but also an increase in demand for very high skilled creative labour. It's the routine work in between that's likely to be replaced or at least made easier by AI, and that eventually will result in the de-skilling of those jobs. So, this was Vivienne's advice.

Vivienne Ming: I think we need to be much more thoughtful, both as a society, but also as HR leaders talking to our organisations about the quick and easy thing to do is hire those lower skill workers, pair them with an AI and get the same level of productivity for lower cost. But the better thing to do is to really empower amazing people to do things they were never able to do before.

Lucy Lewis: It was also really fascinating to hear Vivienne talk about the important role employers can play in shaping the quality and experience of work for their people.

So perhaps with increasing importance, many experts are working really hard to ensure that although technology is critical, humans remain at the forefront of technology strategy and that when you're deploying technology, it's deployed in an intelligent and a thoughtful manner and in a way that enables people to accomplish things that they couldn't be doing before.

And I picked up this idea of human-centric technology adoption with Simon Roberts, and we talked about the important role that humans really have in shaping technology.

Simon Roberts: We tend to shape technology, or as some anthropologists would put it, we domesticate it, we make it fit for human habitation, just as you would a wild animal. So, we tend to take technology, and we mould it around the lives that we want to live. I think there is far too much doom and gloom about technology running roughshod over humans. We are in the driving seat; I think we always have been, and we are much more powerful than we are often led to believe.

Deployment of emerging technologies in the workplace

Lucy Lewis: There's absolutely no doubt it's a really exciting time from a technology perspective. I spoke to Lewis Silkin partners and co-heads of our Data Privacy and Cyber Group, Alexander Milner-Smith and Bryony Long about emerging technologies like Chat GPT, neuro- and biotech, AI algorithms that are transforming our daily lives and our workplaces. And we talked about the myriad of different legal and people related challenges that those bring.

Bryony discussed the importance of employers really engaging with employee concerns about the deployment of new technology in the workplace.

Bryony Long: It’s very, very important that you are cognisant of how you deploy AI within the workplace and that you really get those employees on board, and that you get them involved, and you get them trained up on how to use the systems. But you also give them the assurances that these systems are not going to be replacing them. Getting employees to help you work out what problems need to be solved is also a really good way of making sure that you are using the AI in the most efficient manner. So, for all of those reasons, getting the employees on your AI journey as an organisation I think is absolutely critical.

Lucy Lewis: Alex agreed with this and highlighted the importance of building the trust of employees to achieve a successful deployment of new technology in the workplace. So there it is - “trust” again.

Alexander Milner-Smith: The other side is just bringing on, holistically, your employees with you. All the voluminous governance work, can be wholly undermined a poor rollout or a rushed rollout or a rollout that does not explain the purposes or the limits. But if you can get the general trust piece right, then you really go a long way. You know, good communication, having trust from your employees can occasionally cover some errors that are made, this is new tech so it’s a very important piece.

Impact of global political shifts on the world of work 

Lucy Lewis: As we come to the end of this podcast and to close out 2024, it's useful to zoom out a little bit and take a look at the wider landscape of the world of work and particularly this year, because we've seen a year of significant impact from a political shift perspective, not just in the UK, but also globally. In this year, more than 60 countries, so home to about half of the world's population, held elections.

And in many cases, what we've seen is that voters have rejected the status quo, they've rejected incumbent governing parties, and they voted in favour of populist movements, interestingly, at both ends of the political spectrum.

So hot off the heels of the US election, I spoke to my fellow partner in Lewis Silkin's employment team, James Davis. James has been looking at the impact of global political shifts on the world of work for a number of years. I asked James what conclusions we could draw from the outcome of this slew of elections? What's driving these political shifts?

James Davies: Politics has very much fragmented recently. And I think the interesting fact is that that traditional economic right-left division where you had a of a right-wing party that was small state, low tax, pro-business, anti-regulation, and a left-wing party that was bigger state, higher taxes, more regulations, pro-union, pro-worker. But you've also now got a very different axis, which represents social values. And on one side you have the liberal international progressives, and on the other side you have the traditional nationalist authoritarian parties. And then over the top of that you've got populism.

I think there are two things that are driving that, one of which is low economic growth, and at the same time, rising inequality, particularly inequality of wealth. 

And I think also you have the various drivers of change - technological change, demographic change - and you have people who feel the world is leaving them behind. It's getting more and more difficult for them and they're disillusioned and disenchanted by political parties that have been governing those countries who have either been unable or unwilling to tackle these underlying challenges and therefore they've perhaps unsurprisingly looked for something different. And we see that not only with the rise of extremes and populism but also with the struggles of incumbents

Lucy Lewis: These shifts have shaped and they're going to continue to shape the political and the economic agenda in the years ahead. That has implications to the world of work, particularly as workplace rights are often a key election battleground. And so, we found ourselves in a year that business has been faced with real uncertainty as the legislative agenda in many countries has been in a state of flux and business is in a position of needing to try to anticipate and prepare for potentially quite significant and quite quick legislative change, and that is often a very difficult thing to do.

Interestingly, we seem to be moving away from global harmonisation and moving more towards a multi-system where different countries across the world have different rules, different regulations, different expectations. Of course, with that comes growing complexity all the time - it's becoming much more difficult to be a global organisation. Lots of you working in legal or HR teams in big multinationals will know how challenging it can be to keep on top of that. 

But of course, it’s not just legislative change that is the only driver shaping the world of work. We've talked about that relationship between employers and their people and how that's changing. To bring that out, I spoke to my fellow Lewis Silkin partner, David Hopper, a collective and union expert, about the evolving landscape of union influence and how that's shaping the “employment deal”.

David Hopper: The 2024 elections so far this year have significantly impacted the dynamic between unions and employers. On the one hand, we're seeing a political trend to support greater collective rights and union power, in part based on a mentality of workers wanting to take, or even take back, control over their lives. But on the other hand, we're seeing a global trend of declining union membership which has significant implications for workers being able to collectively bargain.

So I think it really is going to turn on to what extent unions need that engaged workforce and that engaged membership to succeed or whether, in effect, structures are put in place which essentially bypass that requirement. That's not to say that unions won't obviously also want to recruit members, but they may actually be able to play a very significant role even if they don't crack this issue of increasing their actual membership levels.

Employee voice

Lucy Lewis: So watch this space - much will depend on how the statutory frameworks evolve and how the unions respond. But I think there are steps employers can be taking now to respond to the shift and to meet that evolving employee expectation and the rise of employee activism. We are increasingly seeing organisations looking to positively harness employee voice through things like employee groups and other workplace networks such as employee resource groups. Those mechanisms are now really a presence in most companies, which indicates that although we've got generally pretty low levels of trade union membership, employee voice is rising and that is a really important part of the modern and future workplace. I picked that up with David.

David Hopper: Employee expectations have been evolving over a number of years now and this was absolutely accelerated by the pandemic. And one really important aspect of this is employee voice. Fundamentally, employees want to be heard. And where there is discord or disagreement, this can present real challenges for some businesses. Discontent in the workforce isn't just focused on the traditional aspects of pay and working conditions anymore. It also encompasses much wider issues, much trickier issues, which often stray into seeking to influence even how organisations are making their underlying decisions. Managed well, proactively building effective workplace employee voice mechanisms, such as staff councils or works councils, can absolutely boost organisational performance and innovation by creating a really trusted environment that allows the effective management of employee concerns. As I see it, employers that embrace this approach and do this well can absolutely minimise the exposure to union influence, particularly in a current climate where there are such strong political drivers to create a more supportive environment for unions coming down the tracks.

Lucy Lewis: So there you go, the importance of building a trusted environment - it's that word “trust” again. In the context of everything that we've spoken about on the podcast this year, if employers can build up effective employee voice mechanisms, it feels like that really presents an opportunity to help navigate what are quite difficult and complex roads ahead.

Priority actions to build organisational resilience

So, as we come to the end of this podcast, I wanted to share with you some insight that our podcast guests gave in response to the question that I asked all of our guests - what priority actions should organisations take to build resilience in the year ahead? 

Here's a selection of what they told us.

Ben Willmott: I think it is to equip your line managers to manage people properly. Be able to build the business case for investment in people management, so really highlighting the data that will influence senior leadership teams and boards as to why investment in HR and people management and development is critical to the delivery of business strategy.

Avivah Wittenberg-Cox: Prioritise longevity and the new demographics on a par with the other two big issues that they are prioritising, which is climate and AI. Get those three things bundled together as the 21st century triumvirate of challenges that are going to shape shift our world and our businesses. Get it on the leadership agenda as a strategic global business shift and get a longevity strategy. 

Giles Gibbons: I would strongly recommend organisations find this moment in time, when perhaps the workplace is probably changed more than it has in the last 100 years. Use it as a moment to actually have conversations with the people they work with to find how can we be the best version of ourselves? How can we be productive? How can we continue to innovate? How can we balance that with a sort of work life balance that works for us in 2024 and beyond?

Simon Roberts: I think too often, technology conversations can end up as being about automation, about cost saving, about simplification. So I think a more human-centred debate or discussion about the role that technology is going to play in work in order to make it not just more fun, but to make it more meaningful for people. I think leadership in most organisations bear a lot of responsibility to help get that right.

David Hopper: I'd say that the bottom line is your employees' voices are going to be expressed, come what may, one way or another, whether when in a negative form in the form of disgruntlement leading to staff turnover or potentially even industrial action, or when positive with staff really wanting to help shape a business's overall strategic direction. Given that, my best advice would be for employers to proactively enable employees to be heard and their voice to be heard. 

Lucy Lewis: So that's it - this year's key insights to help us build organisational resilience and growth in an uncertain, but also I think, really hopeful and exciting world of work. Whilst we can't predict the future, these discussions have highlighted the importance of looking ahead. And here at the Future of Work Hub, we really want to help you do just that, to see ahead by sharing a wide range of insights and perspectives on the future world of work.

So, as we look ahead to 2025, we'll be publishing a report early in the new year, identifying trends to support you in shaping your workforce planning, to help guide your strategic decision making and prepare for the future challenges. So, if you're not already part of our free to join community, do sign up  to make sure you receive the report. 

And on that note, a really big thank you to our wonderful guest speakers who've appeared on this 2024 podcast series, and also a big thank you to all of you, our listeners, for your support. The “In Conversation…” podcast series will be back in 2025, bringing you more insights and perspectives on the future of work. But until then, thank you.